Search arXivSearch

arXiv · 2405.00840

Elementarity of Subgroups and Complexity of Theories for Profinite Groups

Abstract

Although $S_\infty$ (the group of all permutations of $\mathbb{N}$) is size continuum, both it and its closed subgroups can be presented as the set of paths through a countable tree. The subgroups of $S_\infty$ that can be presented this way with finite branching trees are exactly the profinite ones. We use these tree presentations to find upper bounds on the complexity of the existential theories of profinite subgroups of $S_\infty$, as well as to prove sharpness for these bounds. These complexity results enable us to distinguish a simple subclass of profinite groups, those with \emph{orbit independence}, for which we find an upper bound on the complexity of the entire first order theory. Additionally, given a profinite subgroup $G$ of $S_\infty$ and a Turing ideal $I$ we define $G_I$ to be the set of elements in $G$ whose Turing degree lies in $I$. We examine to what extent and under what conditions $G_I$ will be an elementary subgroup of $G$. In particular, we construct a profinite group whose subgroup of computable elements is not elementary even for existential formulas.

Explore related subjects

Keep this discovery

Explore connections, maps & timelines

BibTeXRIS

Jason Block. 2025-08-07. Elementarity of Subgroups and Complexity of Theories for Profinite Groups. https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.00840

Cite the original work for its findings. Save a collection to share your selection of sources.

KEEP EXPLORING

Related papers

Natural Term Logic

In this paper we develop a formal system called Natural Term Logic (NTL). NTL aims to represent key aspects of the logical and grammatical mechanisms of natural language as well as grammatical transformations which preserve core logical meaning. NTL can be seen as a refinement of the ideas of Quine's paper `Variables Explained Away' and the technical concepts introduced by Bealer and Zalta. NTL is more fine-grained than Bealer's first-order intensional logic (BL): there is a many-to-one correspondence $ν$ between NTL terms and closed BL terms as well as a canonical map $β$ which assigns to each closed BL term a corresponding NTL term. The map $ν$ can be seen as assigning a core logical content of the NTL term. We define a series of reductions on NTL terms which intuitivelyy speaking capture meaning-preserving syntactic transformations ( transformations which preserved the basic logical meaning of a term) and our main result is that each NTL term $T$ reduces to a unique normal term $N$. The reductions fall into the structural, predicative and pushing-in categories. Predicative reductions decompose NTL terms so that predication is only applied to a primitive term (such terms are called prenormal). A key ingredient in the proof is the fact that $βνN = N$ when $N$ is normal. This suggests that within NTL the normal form of a term expresses the core logical content of the term.

math.LO

Hyper-hyperfiniteness and complexity

We show that if there exists a countable Borel equivalence relation which is hyper-hyperfinite but not hyperfinite, then the complexity of hyperfinite countable Borel equivalence relationsis as high as possible, namely, $Σ^1_2$-complete. We also establish an implication between the question of the effectivity of hyperfiniteness and its complexity.

math.LO

Coordinate recognition: General theory, Groups, and other surprises

A class of structures \emph{recognizes coordinates} if any reduced product of structures from said class witnesses a certain kind of rigidity phenomenon. We provide several equivalent characterizations of this property. This property has (at least) two remarkable consequences, one set-theoretic and one model-theoretic, for reduced products of structures of the said class. First, under appropriate set-theoretic assumptions every isomorphism between such reduced products associated with the Fréchet ideal lifts (modulo a finite change) to an isomorphism between products of the original structures. Second, with an additional mild assumption, it implies a strong quantifier elimination result. Of note, we show that a class recognizes coordinates if and only if an individual formula witnesses a certain syntactic property. We also consider many concrete classes of structures and determine whether or not they recognize coordinates. We place heavy emphasis on well-known classes of groups, such as permutation groups, acylindircally hyperbolic groups, quasisimple groups, free products, and graph products, but we also discuss other classes of structures.

math.LO